Third episode - Going to court or not

So, as this drama with Kela goes on, the baby is born. Hurray, what a little thing. I have to admit that this little boy has immediately placed the Kela trouble to third or fourth priority only.

But then again, the fight goes on. We filed the official complain about the decision. And we know well that is only a symbolic gesture, twisting your toes in the sunshine kind of action. In legal terms, the Kela decision is as correct as it can be. So, if we decide to continue this fight, the only next step we have is to take Kela to court.

Friends have asked every now and then how has this Kela case developed. Every time they are surprised how such thing can be happening. But the ultimate question still is, what can we little people do against this titanic organisation? People keep saying that we should fight and fight. However, it seems the real answer from their guts is we'd better cut it short and move on in life.

In the past two months or so, we have talked to many friends and heard stories from people about their experience with Kela. Apart from a couple of exceptional bravery (or idiocy?) all people just felt stressed, sorry and sad about the experience and treatment. Maybe they filed a complain, maybe not. And then they just simply moved on in their life. It is as if, in this country Finland, unpleasant and unfair treatment by Kela is an inevitable stage of life. You learn to ride bike, you have sex for the first time, you get your driving license, you get drunk for the first time, you serve in the army, you get screwed by Kela once or twice ...

Finns all seem to just suck it up and do nothing about the system. To be exact and fair, these are not my own words but coming out from several Finnish friends in our recent discussion. You can't help just sigh and wonder what else can be more Finnish than such behaviour and mentality.

Of course, they might well ask, what else can you do? Fighting against the bureaucracy? Spending money and time to argue with the officials? Even the politicians do not seem to want to have anything to do with such trouble. We wrote a couple of mails to Kela and cc to many politicians of the major parties. None, not a single one of them, has replied. These are the politicians you all have voted for, those who promised you this and that before the election.

So there is the question still, what can we do about this case? Looking from example and experience, the choices are,

- stop fighting, move on in life, treat this as a nightmare and forget about it.
- vote with our feet and plane ticket, move the business and ourselves out of this country as soon as possible.
- keep fighting, make noises and take Kela to court.

You tell me, what we should do? :-)

Can you trust what Finnish officials tell you?

As we have been having this trouble with KELA, we keep hearing surprises every day.
The recent news is that the court in Turku ruled against the tax office,

http://www.mtv3.fi/uutiset/kotimaa.shtml/arkistot/kotimaa/2007/06/540203

Basically, the shipyard workers received instruction from the tax office and acted accordingly. And then later on the tax office had a different intrepretation of the cases and demanded tax back-payment.

The arguement is about "luottamuksen suoja", in other words, "luottamusperiaate", the "principle of trust". Practically it is about the idea that everyday life citizens should be able to trust the advices and instructions given by the tax office officials, even though the advices and instructions are given verbally only.

That should be a pretty basic matter of everyday life, right? If I do not know about an official matter, then I go and ask the officials, and act accordingly. And to be sure about the information and instruction I have just received, I do not need to be a paranoid, conspiracy theorists, overly pessimistic or even having obsessive-compulsive disorders to ask about the same matter from different officials, again and again.

But then, looking at this court case, our trouble, and so many other friends who have had problems with KELA, seemingly, there is no trust. Well, so, where does this distrust stop then? What about the immigration office? The police? When you need to build a house, get a driving license, get a hunting permit, register your new marriage, adopt a child ... ?

As for KELA, (my favorite agency nowadays!) a friend was just telling about an example. When his wife was still studying, she shared an apartment with several people: a university student of economics, one of sociology, one of laws and one that works in KELA itself. One day one of them received a two-page letter about some instructions for a certain student money matter. All of them TOGETHER could not understand what the instructions were about.

Well, even with the instructions on paper, you cannot even seem to understand what the officials tell you, maybe putting trust in phone conversation or verbal communication is already a bit far off. As shipyard works, students, pregnant women, private entrepreneurs, normal taxpayers or even KELA own workers cannot quite trust what the officials tell them, this is sure a sorry situation.

Second episode: A reply to the Kela big boss

This is a mail I sent last night to the Kela big boss XXX asking questions and expressing concerns about out case.
Sorry, it is in Finnish.



Hei ,

Kiitos vastauksestanne (löytyy liitteestä sähköpostiviestit asian tiimoilta sivuilta 13-14).

Olen Merjan aviomies, eli tuleva lapsen isä.

On selvää, että lain mukaan äitiyspäivärahapäätös on oikea. Mutta nyt kysessä onkin Kelan meille virheellisesti antama tieto/ohjeistus.

Ohessa olevassa sähköpostiviestittelystä asioiden kulku selviää tarkemmin.

Tarkoittaako teidän vastauksenne sitä, että Kela kyllä teki virheen, mutta koska keskustelu on käyty puhelimitse kolmannen osapuolen välityksellä niin perheemme kantaa siitä vastuun yksin.

Kela teki virheen ja lapsemme saa kärsiä / kantaa vastuun siitä

Lastensuojelulaki 5.8.1983/683
9 §
Keskeiset periaatteet

Perhe- ja yksilökohtaisessa lastensuojelussa on otettava ensisijaisesti huomioon lapsen etu sekä tuettava lapsen vanhempien ja muiden lasta hoitavien henkilöiden kasvatusmahdollisuuksia lapselle suotuisten kasvuolojen vakiinnuttamiseksi.

Eilen kävimme XXX Kelan toimistossa kyselemässä tästä asiasta lisää. Vastaanotossa oli XXX XXX, joka on asiakassihteeri ja äitiyspäivärahan asiatuntija XXX Kelassa (ja myös päätöksen allekirjoittaja).

Kysyin XXX:lta saman kysymyksen, ja saimme vain tavallaan "No Comment" vastauksia.

Siis, vastaus on ilmeisesti valitettava, mutta hiljainen KYLLÄ.

Perheemme taloudellinen tilanne ja näin ollen myös tuleva lapsemme tulee kärsimään, koska Kelalta saamamme virheelisen ohjeistuksen mukaan suunnittelimme äitiysloman/vanhempainvapaan jaottelun ja budjetin.

Nyt kun päätös onkin se, että lapsen äiti (yrittäjä) saisi vain minimi äitiyslomarahan (380 euroa kuukaudessa eli 15,20 euroa/arkipäivä miinus 32.5% veroa), ja näin ollen ei voikaan taloudellisista syistä jäädä kotiin lapsen kanssa, vaan hänen on pakko ryhtyä töihin melkein synnytyksen jälkeen (joka tosin ei ole lain puitteissa edes mahdollista vaan äidin on oltava, ja olisi suotavaakin lapsen kehityksen kannalta, kotona ensimmäiset 105 arkipäivää ilman vaihto-oikeutta isälle).

Miten siis ratkaista taloudelliset kysymykset, kuten esimerkiksi asunnon lainalyhennykset (Kelahan ei voi olettaa, että lapselta myydään koti alta pois)?

Kaikki apu mitä olemme saaneet Kelalta nyt (väärän tiedon/ohjeistuksen lisäksi) on rivien välistä paistava kehoitus olla tekemättä yhtään mitään asialle, koska se olisi kuitenkin turhaa.

Eiköhän ole jo ihmettelylle aihetta?

Eikö luontevinta olisi yhdessä etsiä ratkaisua ongelmaan, koska se kuitenkin kumpuaa Kelan toimihenkilön tekemästä virheestä. Byrokratia ei voi olla näin jähmeää/kaukana ihmisestä.

Nyt ongelmana meille Kelan mielestä on ettei ohjeistuksen antanutta henkilöä voida identifioida, koska keskustelu käytiin puhelimitse puolisen vuotta sitten.

Kuulimme kuitenkin toiselta taholta, että Kelan puhelinkeskusteluita nauhoitettaisiin.

Onko näin?

Suullinen sopimuskin on laillisesti pätevä, miksi tämä/suullinen neuvonta ei olisi?

Ja kuka nyt haluaisi päänsä laittaa vastaavaan tilanteeseen vapaaehtoisesti?!

Aiemmassa keskustelussa, teidän virkailijanne (sivut 6-7 / sahkopostiviestit asian tiimoilta) myösi, että tämmoinen tapaus on toki mahdollinen.

Lainaus/

Virkailijan kanssa keskustellessani, ja ihmetellessäni, miten moisesta laitoksesta voidaan antaa niin harhaanjohtavaa informaatiota, ei virkailija suoraan kieltänyt virheen mahdollisuutta, mutta totesi kuitenkin, että ihmisiä vastaamassa puhelimiin on niin monenlaisia, ettei voida välttyä tämmöisiltäkään virheiltä.

Monet ystävämme ovat kertoneet kuultuaan tapauksestamme, että Kelan kanssa asioidessa kannattaa kysyä ainakin 2-3 kertaa eri virkailijilta samaa asiaa, niin ehkä asia tulee oikealla tavalla selväksi.

Kelalla tuntuu olevan hieman kyseenalainen maine.

XXX Kelan XXX XXX kertoi valituksen käsittelyn vievän kuukausia sen tarkemmin määrittelemättä kuinka monta.

Tilanteemme on kuitenkin ajankohtainen juuri nyt ja vaikuttaa lapsemme tilanteeseen juuri nyt eikä kuukausien päästä (lapsen laskettu aika heinäkuun alussa).

Viesti tuntuu kuitenkin olevan joka taholta sama; kannattaa jättää asia/valitus, koska on hyödytöntä taistella "titaaneja" vastaan, lopputulos on selvä jo etukäteen.

Suurin myönnytys asian tiimoilta tuntui olevan teidän (big boss XXX) toteamuksenne;

>> Välitän tämän tiedon myös yhteyskeskuksemme johtjajalle tiedoksi jotta he voisivat käydä henkilöstökoulutuksena läpi tällaisten tapausten neuvontaan liittyvät asiat.>>
(Liite; sahkopostiviestit asian tiimoilta / sivu 14)

On pakko vähän ihmetella, että olemmeko vain, valitettavasti, yksi esimerkki-/oppitapaus lisää?

Teillä (big boss XXX) on mielestäni hyvin omituinen tapa yrittää ratkaista ongelmaa eli teillä ei tunnu olevan halukkuutta edes pohtia ratkaisua.

Yksityisyrittäjä on monessa suhteessa hyvin omillaan verrattaessa palkansaajaan saimme taas kerran todeta, varsinkin naispuolinen.

Verratessamme vaimon kanssa myöskin muutamia muita avustuksia vastaan tuli omituisia lukuja kuten esimerkiksi minimi työttömyyskorvaus yhden lapsen lisällä on melkein 29 euroa per arkipäivä kun taas minimi äitiysraha on 17,57 euroa ensimmäisiltä 56:lta päivältä ja sen jälkeisiltä päiviltä 15,20 euroa. Hyvin omituinen rahallinen ero kun tilanne on käytännössä sama, paitsi juuri synnyttäneenä ei nainen edes olisi kykeneväinen työhön puhumattakaan raskauden viimeisistä ajoista, eikä se ole edes hyväksi lapsen kehitykselle.

Miksi on rangaistavaa perustaa perhe?


Hyvin huolestunein terveisin

First episode: Reply from the Kela big boss

This is the first reply from some Kela big boss XXX about our case.
Sorry it is in Finnish.



Olen selvittänyt miten hakemusta on käsitelty vakuutuspiirissämme. Asia on käsitelty ohjeiden mukaisesti niitten tietojen perusteella jotka on hakemuksessa selvitetty. Päätös on siis juriidisesti oikea. Se miten Kelasta on annettu neuvontaa asiassa on tietysti jälkikäteen vaikea selvittää jos sitä ei ole dokumentoitu. Valitettavasti asialle ei voi tässä vaiheessa tehdä muuta kuin jättää asiasta valituksen jos on päätökseen tyytymätön. Toki valituksen menestymismahdollisuudet ovat heikot. Valituksen yhteydessä päätöksen antajan on tutkittava onko päätös oikastavissa. Jos valitus ei menesty asiakkaalla on tietysti mahdollisuus hakea päätöksen poistamista. Siinä tapauksessa on pystyttävä selkeästi osoittamaan että päätös perustuu väärään tai puutteelliseen selvitykseen tai on ilmesesti lainvastainen.

Päätöksen oikaiseminen on mahdollista jos päätös on virheellinen siinä olevan asia-, menettely-, kirjoitus- tai laskuvirheen vuoksi. Päätöksessä on asiavirhe silloin, kun päätös perustuu väärään tai puutteelliseen selvitykseen tai on ilmeisesti lain vastainen. Päätöksessä on menettelyvirhe esimerkiksi silloin, kun päätöstä tehtäessä ei ole kuultu asianosaista. Kirjoitus- ja laskuvirheelle on ominaista, että ne tiedot, jotka ovat olleet päätöksen perustana, ovat olleet oikeita, mutta päätöstä valmisteltaessa tai sitä kirjoitettaessa on sattunut kirjoitus- tai laskuvirhe tai niihin rinnastettava tiedonsiirtovirhe. Päätöksen poistamisen edellytyksenä on, että päätös on perustunut väärään tai puutteelliseen selvitykseen taikka on ilmeisesti lain vastainen.

Välitän tämän tiedon myös yhteyskeskuksemme johtjajalle tiedoksi jotta he voisivat käydä henkilöstökoulutuksena läpi tällaisten tapausten neuvontaan liittyvät asiat.

Ystävällisin terveisin

Kela made a mistake, our child has to suffer - Kela teki virheen ja lapsemme saa kärsiä

If you live in Finland, have you ever had problems with Kela?
Many of my friends have. And often rather serious problems.

Our problem, in short, is that Kela made a mistake, and does not seem to want to correct it, so we, and especially our upcoming child , have to suffer.

First, what is Kela?
It is the instituition which takes care of the social welfare.

I will put the links below soon for the emails exchange we have had with Kela. So you can get a better understanding of the whole case. If Kela or anyone suspects we are lying or making up the story, by going through all these trouble, and to this length, when the official due day of the baby is in 1.5 weeks, feel free to call the police.

The events in this case are simple as such,

1. We got pregnant. Jiippi!
2. Since my wife is a private entreprenuer, she asked her accountant what she should do with her taxation and salary, so she can be a normal mother with normal maternal leave when the baby is born, getting subsidize from the state which is about 1600 euros netto a month.
3. The accountant called Kela for, stayed clearly that my wife is a private and single entreprenuer who pays minimal YEL and so on. The answer and instruction was that my wife can CHOOSE and RAISE EITHER the SALARY or YEL payment.
4. As the relay of information from the accountant was clear, (hey come on, EITHER OR), my wife chose to raise the salary part, and acted accordingly to the instruction given by Kela.
5. Early in June, decision from Kela about the maternal payment (äityispäiväraha) came. And it says, since the YEL payment has not been paid sufficiently, my wife will receive only the minimal amount of maternal payment, namely some 250 euros netto a month.
7. As the difference and result is so different, we asked the accountant and Kela what has gone wrong. As the accountant only relayed the information, then it is Kela that we most focused to get an answer.
8. The conclusion is, as Kela silently admits, that their employer gave wrong information to our accountant, and hence to us.
9. In the exchange of emails and face-to-face discussion, Kela personnels have only given us bureaucratic answers and feedbacks that this case does not go anywhere. We can sure file a complain but the process will take many many months, and the chance of seeing a favourable result is very little. Other alternatives to deal with the case at hand has likely little effect on the current decision.
10. After evaluating the situation, we came to the conclusion that, my wife will need to go back to work pretty much after the baby delivery. The financial plan, which we have done according to the instruction Kela gave months ago, simply cannot be realised, and we cannot support the baby and other finance burden having my wife not working.

Now when we have talked to some rather big boss and other officials within Kela, all we have got is the same kind of indifference and message that nothing can be done. In between the lines the message they seem to tell us basically is "Don't even bother complaining, it will be no use, just give up, and go home, and suffer a bit."

The fact is my wife will have to start working already right after the delivery instead of staying with the child. The time that the newborn child is entitled to share with the mother will be taken away simply because Kela did a mistake and they even do not want to acknowledge it!

In other words, by making the mistake and not correcting it, Kela simply forces the mother to work right after delivery and be away from the child. Note that, Kela does not deny such a mistake has been made, disregarding whether the personnel who gave the wrong information is identified or not.

We noticed the basic law of child protection in Finland. And it says that a child has a right to have a safe environment to grow up. Well, already being forced to be separated from the mother in the early months, it does not sound a very safe environment to begin with, does it?!

I just cannot help wondering if any other people in this country has had similar problems. Now when I have talked with many friends and people, the picture I have is that no matter what fight you have with Kela, they always win.

So what we have learnt quickly now here?
If you think about being a private entrepreneur, especially as a woman, think twice, really.
Or if you plan to have a child in this country, think also well.
Or then if you simply think that when you pay a lot of tax here in Finland, you will be covered by social benefits when you really need it, well, think again!
The fact we have noticed is, Kela does not seem to want to help you out genuinely. It is pretty much simply a gigantic bureaucracy in which the problems and mistakes do not seem to exist, or at least they never want to acknowledge them nor correct them.

It feels like we are being robbed in board daylight, and nobody, nobody cares about this. And the robber happens to be the state, the state institution of Finland!

One thing I'd much like to ask these officials, as they likely have kids, is what they would tell their children, or we tell our child, that if you make a mistake, if it is fine just to try to cover it and wish it disappear? Is it like those monkey statues tourists often buy from China, that do not hear, do not see, do not speak about. Is this the system we live with in Finland?

And about our child, what should we tell him/her? That mother has to be away because Kela forced her to? That do not ever rely on the state and social benefit? DO NOT EVER think about fighting bureaucracy? And do not ever think that, even in this country of Finland, when you pay a lot of taxes, you would be covered by the social welfare when you most need it? Or simply that shit happens, shut up now?!

A friend of mine is a son of a popular politician. He and I had a long talk. His father is a personal friend of the head of Kela. My friend told me frankly that we had better not to spend the energy and time to fight this fight. It would be like banging our heads to a stone wall for months and months. It is just simply better to walk away and live our life with the newborn baby as if nothing has happened.

Maybe we simply should tell our child and ourselves that the bureaucrats, for their sheer size and power, can pretty much do whatever they want. And that we might just as well talk about this with the Chinese embassy and get the citizenship for the child fast, sell our house and move our business away from this country. For this kind of bureaucracy and "fairness" is easily found in China just as well.


What about the state, parliament and the policiticans who promised you this and that before the election? What do they really say about this, if anything at all? That is for the next episode. Stay toned. And if you have any similar experience, please share with us.

Why Finland? And why a (another) blog?

Looking and reading blogs of friends around and all over the world, every now and then I wonder maybe I should start my own too. Now that when Juhannus is just over, I thought maybe I can realise a resolution. Who says a resolution always has to begin with a New Year?

Then about what I should write about?
What more natural a topic than Finland - Suomi?
True, there are blogs about Finland already, by foreigners also. Just check out for instance www.finlandforthought.net and hopohopo.finnishschool.com.

As a foreigner, I have lived in this country for 14 years now.
During all these years here, meeting and talking with friends and people from different countries, different professions, social backgrounds, interest group, religions, etc. it seems to me there is always something new to talk about life in this country. Things that I have thought that are so common and known, often exist as new and surprises for other people. Differences between Finns and foreigners can even be bigger.

So, here we go.